[pct-l] SCAQMD Rule 1143 & Denatured Alcohol Question

Mon Apr 4 09:43:22 CDT 2011

Greg, thank you.  I was hoping that someone like you was out there with some answers!  

L-Rod

-----Original Message-----
>From: Greg Mikol <greg.mikol at ieee.org>
>Sent: Apr 3, 2011 1:51 PM
>To: Donna Saufley <dsaufley at sprynet.com>
>Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
>Subject: Re: [pct-l] SCAQMD Rule 1143 & Denatured Alcohol Question
>
>Donna--
>
>I reading from the rule, as published here:
>
>http://www.aqmd.gov/rules/reg/reg11/r1143.pdf
>
>With amendments through 3 Dec 2010. Specifically, I'm basing my comments 
>on R1143(a)(2), wihch seems to exclude products that display specific 
>end-use instructions, functions or specifications.
>
>First, I don't think that Esbit or solid-type fuels are affected. 
>They're solid, so they don't evaporate. I also don't think sterno or MSR 
>type canisters would be affected, since they only have a non-solvent 
>end-use.
>
>My guess is that because denatured alcohol has both solvent and 
>non-solvent end-uses, is where it gets a little cloudy, and I suspect 
>that no distributor or re-seller wants to take a chance. I don't see any 
>penalties specified in Rule 1143, but I suspect they may be steep.
>
>As a practical matter, even if denatured alcohol specifically labeled as 
>"marine fuel" or "stove fuel" is not covered by this rule, if no 
>distributor is willing to sell it to your hardware store, it doesn't 
>matter. And it would probably take a court case to sort it out.
>
>Other than HEET, I find it unlikely that there will be a 
>readily-available liquid fuel for cat-can / soda-can type stoves, if 
>"marine stove fuel" cannot be obtained. A low-VOC formulation means that 
>there are a lot of things in that liquid that are not "volatile organic 
>compounds", and most likely, won't burn or won't burn readily.
>
>--Greg
>
>
>
>
>On 4/3/2011 12:25 PM, Donna Saufley wrote:
>> Greg, I hope you are right in your interpretation. There are also some
>> modifications in proposed amendments to the rule that you find on a search
>> that I could not ascertain were adopted. I'm certainly not an expert in law,
>> science, or labeling (deceptive or otherwise). The cans of denatured
>> recently donated are labeled "alcohol appliance fuel" "marine stove fuel"
>> and made no mention of solvent uses. For me the litmus test is whether or
>> not the hardware store can order the product. If they can't order it,
>> chances are good other retailers in the SCAQMD boundaries won't be able to
>> order it either.  Our dear Trish is a busy lady, but I will check to see if
>> she can order plain marine fuel, Heet, sterno, and esbits or other solid
>> fuel like trioxane.  I know she can't order fuel canisters because she's
>> tried that before.
>>
>> Maybe too the new lower VOC products might still be effective for our cat
>> can stoves. Going cookless is a great option if you're prepared to do so. I
>> confess I would really miss the creature comforts of hot tea and cleaning up
>> with warm water.  Yes, I'm a wussy hiker.
>>
>> L-Rod
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net]
>> On Behalf Of Greg Mikol
>> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 10:29 PM
>> To: pct-l at backcountry.net
>> Subject: [pct-l] SCAQMD Rule 1143&  Denatured Alcohol Question
>>
>> Bull Burge wrote:
>>> http://www.packserv.com/Content-Public/Products-By-Brand/Page.asp?iID=8
>>>
>>>   These guys are providing a denatured alcohol that will pass the voc
>>> levels.
>>>
>>> I haven't been able to do good research on my phone, but automotive
>>> additives like HEET may not be covered by this based on their
>>> intended use.
>>>
>>> BillB Typoed on my iPhone...
>>
>>
>> Bill, I think you may have mis-read something on your iphone. This
>> company is making some vague claims about "biodegradable" and "95%
>> natural" and "renewable" for their denatured alcohol, but if you look at
>> the MSDS, it still is, fundamentally, alcohol. 90-95% ethanol, 5-10%
>> isopropyl alcohol, pretty typical denatured alcohol. ~800 g/L VOC.
>>
>> The simple alcohols (methyl, ethyl, propanol, isopropyl) are all VOC's.
>> Period. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is probably lying.
>>
>> However, in reading through Rule 1143, it appears as if denatured
>> alcohol could still be sold if it is explicitly labeled with a specific
>> end-use that is not as a solvent. (NOTE: I don't live in SoCal, and I am
>> neither an expert, nor a lawyer). For example, a 1-quart can of
>> denatured alcohol with a manufacturer's printed label which identifies
>> it for use as marine stove fuel only, and gives no other usage
>> instructions is OK, since it's designed to be burned = no VOC's. That
>> same quart, with a label that simply reads "Denatured Alcohol" or
>> "Shellac Thinner", with multiple uses listed, is not OK, since many of
>> those uses are designed for evaporation of the alcohol into the atmosphere.
>>
>> Just my interpretation, but it doesn't do any good for tracking down
>> fuel in the middle of nowhere. However, if there are a couple of
>> PCT-friendly stores at key locations that could be talked into stocking
>> "Marine Stove Fuel", properly labeled, that might help, in the future.
>>
>> My opinion is worth what you paid for it...
>>
>> --Greg
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