[pct-l] navigational aids

Wed Oct 27 19:34:59 CDT 2010

HI Ned

Great advice!

I'm completely comfortable off trail in snow. If I wasn't I couldn't hike
near my house in winter :)  I really love hiking on snowpack. Once I let go
of trying to stay on the trail, it's kind of liberating. I just decide where
it is I want to go, such as a saddle up ahead, and pick what looks like the
easiest route. Sometimes that might be straight up the hill by kicking
steps. :P

That being said, I still like to use the GPS. I guess I never thought about
it much until I read your post. I use it more to confirm where I already
think I am, and also because I'm a geek and like data LOL. The more hikers
that collect GPS data, the more accurately we will be able to mark the
trail's exact location. If you look at the tracks from folks like Halfmile,
there are always spots where it appears they are off route. I suspect the
trail is marked wrong on the map. Since I started carrying a GPS into the
backcountry, I've found this happens pretty often. I know the GPS isn't
always exact, but when it tells me it's accurate to +- 20 ft, but it shows
me 100s of ft from the trail, either the GPS or the map is mistaken.

You're absolutely right that nobody should rely on a GPS to not get lost. I
always assume the battery will die and I will have to navigate with the
paper map.

On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:49 AM, <ned at mountaineducation.org> wrote:

> This Spring, when we were on the Crest between KM and the MTR in the
> snow-filled months of May and June, we carried the Inyo NF map, Halfmile's
> maps, and a Garmin Rino with radio for group communication.
>
> In navigating through the trees, even with 100% snow coverage, if you know
> what your topo is telling you about where the trail goes and periodically
> can find trail sign (blazes, placards, signs, cuts in the snow, cut branches
> and logs, lines of rocks, etc.), you don't really need the GPS. However, not
> everyone has practiced these skills enough to be fluent with them once they
> find themselves in the snow, so the GPS is helpful to show where you are
> relative to where the trail is--and with Halfmile's waypoints, it was always
> right on!
>
> How necessary is it to be directly on top of the trail in the snow? Not. If
> you can "read" the geography and can translate that visual awareness to the
> topo map to "see" where the trail is going up ahead (have a detailed-enough
> topo to do this), you will have the peace of mind to head in the right
> direction, avoiding any hazards along the way above and below the snow,
> knowing that the trail is "just over there."
>
> We kept our Garmins "on" all day as we used them for group communication so
> that the member in the back was aware of the route ahead and we knew the
> status of his strength and ability. The Lithium ion batteries lasted about
> 24 hours of continuous-on use each (3 days at 8 hours per day). We were in
> for 12 days per supply, so we carried 4 batteries per unit.
> Always knew where we were and where the trail was and could stay in touch
> with each other so we could discuss where we wanted to film this or that,
> where the hazards were to avoid, and most importantly, where the next lunch
> break would be.
>
> As Uncle Tom said, having a GPS "would have saved me days of wandering
> around looking for the trail in the [snow]," but as others have tried to
> remind us, knowing what to do with it as well as having the practiced
> experience of looking for and learning how to "read" the woods to find trail
> sign, is more valuable, yet. Go out and practice what you need to know
> before you find that you don't know enough when the real thing is upon you.
>
>
> "Just remember, Be Careful out there!"
>
> Ned Tibbits, Director
> Mountain Education
> 1106A Ski Run Blvd
> South Lake Tahoe, Ca. 96150
>   P: 888-996-8333
>   F: 530-541-1456
>   C: 530-721-1551
>   http://www.mountaineducation.org
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Jamrog" <tjamrog at me.com>
> To: "Kevin Cook" <hikelite at gmail.com>
> Cc: "pct-l" <pct-l at backcountry.net>; "Halfmile" <halfmile at pctmap.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 9:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] smartphone as two-way, also?
>
>
>  If I had it to do all over again I'd buy a used Garmin eTrex for under
>> $100 and download Halfmile's waypoints and just turn it on when I was
>> heading toward lost.  It would have saved me days of wandering around
>> looking for the trail in the Sierras this year.
>> Uncle Tom
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 27, 2010, at 12:37 PM, Kevin Cook wrote:
>>
>>  Maybe I got good battery life because the phone is only a couple months
>>> old?
>>> I'll be happy if I can run it all day on a full charge, but I was pretty
>>> pleased to see it only used ~50% of the battery. It was probably a little
>>> more than half, but it was still "green".
>>>
>>> It took 24 hours to download that test section, but again, my internet at
>>> home sucks and I probably grabbed mare data than I needed. Most of it was
>>> downloaded yesterday when I got to work and hopped on the wifi here. We
>>> have
>>> a 20MB connection, so it downloaded much faster. I'm going to try
>>> downloading some more PCT in smaller bits to see how long it takes. The
>>> trail twists and turns, so I had to download a really large area to make
>>> sure I covered all the surrounding areas as well. I'm concerned about
>>> that
>>> time too. Since the plan is to download the next section when I'm in
>>> town,
>>> 24 hours is way too long.
>>>
>>> I'm eager to hear how well the nPowerPEG works. It sounds like I better
>>> get
>>> mine ordered asap if I want to test with it before the trip. It's going
>>> to
>>> start snowing here soon, so it will be harder to get real hiking in for
>>> testing. Please let me know when you get yours!
>>>
>>> I'll have to look into that waypoint limitation in MotionX. I still
>>> haven't
>>> tried importing anything because you have to email them the file. I'll go
>>> start that now and let you know what I find out.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the info. That PEG has me really excited!
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 10:16 PM, Halfmile <halfmile at pctmap.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Kevin,
>>>> Your getting impressive battery life on your iphone using the GPS,
>>>> sounds like at least 4 or 5 times longer than my old iPhone 3G. I
>>>> wonder if the improvement is all related to new hardware or if the
>>>> apps you are using somehow cycle the GPS off and on to save power.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding the nPowerPEG I ordered one on September 13, on October 25 I
>>>> received this update that says in part:
>>>>
>>>> "However, due to a delay in the delivery of a unique, custom-made
>>>> battery that goes inside of the PEG, it is taking us longer than
>>>> expected to fulfill orders. Our supplier is delivering small
>>>> quantities of batteries each week, and as soon as they arrive, we
>>>> build and test units in attempt to fulfill our outstanding orders as
>>>> quickly as possible."
>>>>
>>>> I can't say how well they will work, but don't expect a quick delivery
>>>> if you decide to order one.
>>>>
>>>> On Motion X I have the full (not trial) version but I haven't used it
>>>> much in the last year...I pretty much gave up on it back then. Sounds
>>>> like it's better now, maybe I will have another go at it when I have
>>>> some extra free time although 24 hours to download maps doesn't sound
>>>> that promising, hopefully it's much faster with a better internet
>>>> connection.
>>>>
>>>> -Halfmile
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:53 PM, Kevin Cook <hikelite at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Let's also no forget the video camera, journal, compass, maps,
>>>>>
>>>> flashlight,
>>>>
>>>>> guidebook(? this just occured to me), and probably more things I'm not
>>>>> thinking of.
>>>>>
>>>>> I put the 2 apps through their paces a bit more. The topo app only
>>>>> shows
>>>>>
>>>> me
>>>>
>>>>> topos. I much prefer the data in MotionX. I can't tell how much space
>>>>>
>>>> each
>>>>
>>>>> topo is taking, but I'll find that out. I do know it took awhile to
>>>>>
>>>> download
>>>>
>>>>> each one. I downloaded 4 or 5 to experiment with. It is much easier to
>>>>>
>>>> put
>>>>
>>>>> halfmile's waypoints into though. Just browse to his site, and there
>>>>> they
>>>>> are. I also just tried to see how much data Section A uses in MotionX.
>>>>> It
>>>>> took quite awhile to download this tileset, but it's HUGE. The app
>>>>> originally  estimated it would require 477MB, but it ended up only
>>>>>
>>>> needing
>>>>
>>>>> 430MB. It took FOREVER! OK, not literally, but it took more than 24
>>>>>
>>>> hours.
>>>>
>>>>> It kept losing network connection as my internet at home is spotty
>>>>> right
>>>>> now, so everytime I moved the phone around between different parts of
>>>>> the
>>>>> house, work, remote sites, etc, it would interrupt the download. The
>>>>> nice
>>>>> thing is, it will resume where it left off. Of course I had to look at
>>>>> it
>>>>>
>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>> tell it to try again. Oh well, at least it finished! I downloaded from
>>>>>
>>>> Campo
>>>>
>>>>> to ~San Gorgonio Pass with a ~60 mile width. I think when I hike, I
>>>>> will
>>>>> break it up into smaller sections, but I'll have to experiment more. I
>>>>>
>>>> only
>>>>
>>>>> downloaded the paid version of the app Friday.
>>>>>
>>>>> Halfmile, I think the problem you had with MotionX's limited # of
>>>>>
>>>> waypoints
>>>>
>>>>> was because you were using the trial version? It only allowed me to
>>>>> save
>>>>>
>>>> 1
>>>>
>>>>> track in the trial version. I was worried I would lose day 2 of a ride,
>>>>>
>>>> but
>>>>
>>>>> I was able to leave the recorder paused, email myself the first saved
>>>>>
>>>> track,
>>>>
>>>>> delete that one, and then send myself the 2nd one. Now that I have the
>>>>>
>>>> paid
>>>>
>>>>> version, I don't think there are any limits to how many tracks or
>>>>>
>>>> waypoints
>>>>
>>>>> I can use, other than memory limitations in the phone.
>>>>>
>>>>> In regards to battery life, my iPhone used half a full charge running
>>>>> the
>>>>> GPS all day on my ride 2 weekends ago. We rode from Flagstaff to the
>>>>>
>>>> Canyon
>>>>
>>>>> via the AT trail and forest service roads. We were out of cell range
>>>>> most
>>>>>
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>>> the time, based on checking the signal when I would pull it out to take
>>>>> a
>>>>> picture or whatever. I actually had 2 apps tracking the ride, but I
>>>>> don't
>>>>> think it affects battery to have multiple apps accessing the GPS. We
>>>>> had
>>>>>
>>>> a
>>>>
>>>>> supported camp, so I was able to charge it up for the 2nd day of
>>>>> riding.
>>>>> Again, I used up around half the fully charged battery. Much of the
>>>>> time
>>>>> both days I was also listening to the iPod!
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps I should pull this out to another thread, but I'm planning to
>>>>> use
>>>>>
>>>> an
>>>>
>>>>> nPower PEG to keep it charged. Has anyone used one of these? I know
>>>>> Burnie(Megan) used on this year, but she never mentions it in her
>>>>> journal
>>>>> except at the beginning. From the website, it sounds like a few hours
>>>>> of
>>>>> hiking will fully charge the phone, so I should have continual access
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>> device. I wrote all this yesterday, but waited until I had a final size
>>>>>
>>>> for
>>>>
>>>>> the above data. I noticed someone mentioned this device earlier today.
>>>>>
>>>> Maybe
>>>>
>>>>> I should put this in that thread or start another.
>>>>>
>>>>>
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