[pct-l] Testing of Bear Cannisters / URSACK

[Ken Murray]

Don't know what you've been reading, but bear cans DO work, more than 99% of the time.  Virtually all of the rest are operator error.
Nothing "paper seatbelt" about that.

The only current exception is "Yellow-Yellow", the bear back east that has figured it out.  Jamie Hogan, owner of Bear Vault (and an engineer), was ALSO at the ADZPCTKO, and is very generous with his time, and totally open in discussing this all.

http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2009/07/smarterthantheaveragebear_yell.html

You certainly take an engineering approach to things.  I think that most people don't trust engineering approaches, as opposed to real-world approaches.  After all, engineers have categorically, unequivocally proven that bees cannot fly.

In a world in which there is very limited funding, I'd imagine most would want the funds spent proving something worked, rather than documenting the theory of how something might work in exhaustive detail.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Thyer" <matt_thyer at hotmail.com>
To: "Ken Murray" <kmurray at pol.net>, pct-l at backcountry.net
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 11:15:47 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: RE: [pct-l] Testing of Bear Cannisters / URSACK

Ken,

Wish I could have been there myself, I'm sure that the test procedures would
have kept me interested.  I read the legal documentation of at least one
suit between Ursack and SIBBG.  There's some very interesting information in
there that I'm guessing most hikers aren't aware of.  I've also been finding
plenty of documentation which indicates that bear countermeasures are little
more than "paper seatbelts" -- if the bear has been habituated or is
motivated all of these are little more than a wet paper seatbelt.

I liked the idea of an active bear repellent (mothballs?) that was floated
on the list earlier.  The problem, I'd guess, is one that the military has
been faced with since they started trying to manufacture a crowd control
agent -- it may not affect everyone the same way.  For instance, I've walked
through billowing clouds of CS gas with little to no effect (my eyes watered
pretty badly), the guy next to me in the CS chamber was puking his guts out.

It is too bad that there's no more testing.  A national Underwriters
Laboratories project might be in order, they'd publish an engineering
standard too.

Matt


----- Original Message ----
From: Ken Murray <kmurray at pol.net>
To: . <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Sent: Tue, April 27, 2010 11:20:56 PM
Subject: [pct-l] Testing of Bear Cannisters

Matt, it is a shame that you were not at the KO.

Two of the attendees were Tori Seher, chief bear biologist at Yosemite, and
Calder Reid, Wilderness Manager on the Inyo Nat Forest.

As you may know, the Sierra Interagency Black Bear Group (SIBBG) was the
entity that for the last ten years, had been responsible for recommending
products to the Agencies, and carried out the testing of these products.

As far as I know, either Tori or Calder has been the chair of the SIBBG, and
both have been two of the 5 or so members since inception.   So.....these
are the experts on the situation!

Because of multiple lawsuits by Ursack, that have crippled the ability of
SIBBG to perform testing, they no longer do.  In fact, nobody does, so there
is no mechanism currently for a product to get approved by an Agency, so all
we have are the products that are out there.

At the presentation that these two gave on fire and bears, Tori went through
the exact way that the testing was done, process by process.  I think most
people were impressed by the comprehensiveness and objectivity.

Hey, some of these presenters really know what they are talking about, and
in their case, were around all day friday and saturday to answer any
questions about anything.

Another benefit of the KO.