[pct-l] Pct-l Digest, Vol 15, Issue 40

[Pat brooking]

pct-l-request at backcountry.net wrote:

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>Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: water Sections A& B (AsABat)
>   2. The One - 2009 version (Len Glassner)
>   3. SoCal water (Christopher Kopp)
>   4. Canadian Entry Permit (Jim and/or Ginny Owen)
>   5. Re: water again (Scott Bryce)
>   6. Water Caches (Jim and/or Ginny Owen)
>   7. Re: Water Caches (ed faubert)
>   8. Re: Water Caches (Eric Lee)
>   9. California transit links (Amanda L Silvestri)
>  10. Re: Water Caches (AsABat)
>  11. Re: Getting off the trail at Lone Pine
>      (Diane at Santa Barbara Hikes dot com)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 17:58:27 -0700
>From: "AsABat" <AsABat at 4Jeffrey.Net>
>Subject: Re: [pct-l] water Sections A& B
>To: "'Claudia'" <iclaudius1 at verizon.net>,	<pct-l at backcountry.net>
>Message-ID: <001201c9a1e4$7d165200$6401010a at PC8>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>
>Not many reports of what the water looks like yet, but my guess would be
>the seasonal source will dry quickly if they aren't already dry. 
>
>My opinion is to NEVER rely on caches. In spite of the wonderful water
>cache volunteers best efforts, a heat wave coupled with a large number
>of hikers can quickly deplete a cache. Some have arrived at caches out
>of water only to find the cache was wiped out the day before. I look at
>caches as a pick-me-up, a little extra water if it's there. Others,
>including some friends who do caches, will disagree, saying they try to
>keep everyone in water so they don't have to carry so much. The question
>I ask is, if you are out of water and the cache is empty, what will you
>do? 
>
>There are ways to minimize water carrying in the desert. Cooking where
>there is water rather than at a dry camp helps. Sleeping under a bush in
>the day and hiking in the morning and evening hours is a big help. (I
>got used to my midday nap too quickly, and still miss them.) A big
>ventilated hat with a full brim, and loose white long sleeve shirts keep
>the sun off. Don't forget electrolytes. 
>
>AsABat
>PCT Water Reports for So Cal http://pct.4jeffrey.net
>
>
>  
>
>>We've hiked lots of sections of the PCT but never sections A & B
>>    
>>
>southern
>  
>
>>most.  Do we really need to carry tons of water or are the caches
>>    
>>
>pretty
>  
>
>>reliable?  Hansel and Gretel
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:23:38 -0700
>From: Len Glassner <len5742 at gmail.com>
>Subject: [pct-l] The One - 2009 version
>To: pct-l <pct-l at mailman.backcountry.net>
>Message-ID:
>	<1862be60903101823u5b51a298rb654d2b90299386a at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>I put a document with my comments on the latest version of Gossamer
>Gear's 'The One' tent here:
>
>http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfxjwfwb_8qqvh2qfr
>
>There is a link to pictures embedded in the document.
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:36:31 -0700
>From: Christopher Kopp <christopher.kopp at gmail.com>
>Subject: [pct-l] SoCal water
>To: pct-l <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>Message-ID:
>	<f2f75f2c0903101836v23793503x1d77685fa8c36d3d at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>"Just another quick note about the water.  How far apart are the
>caches , it would make a difference if they were 30 miles apart or if
>they are 15 miles apart?"
>
>http://www.4jeffrey.net/pct/
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 22:06:12 -0400
>From: Jim and/or Ginny Owen <spiriteagle99 at hotmail.com>
>Subject: [pct-l] Canadian Entry Permit
>To: pct-l <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>Message-ID: <BAY115-W396F2556E7C53B86F28762A09E0 at phx.gbl>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>There was a CDT hiker a few years ago who was denied entry at his planned starting point in Waterton.  I'm not sure why.  I have heard that the Canadians will refuse entry to anyone with a DUI conviction.  
>
>Ginny
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:07:38 -0600
>From: Scott Bryce <sbryce at scottbryce.com>
>Subject: Re: [pct-l] water again
>To: pct-l at backcountry.net
>Message-ID: <49B71CEA.3090206 at scottbryce.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Claudia wrote:
>  
>
>>Just another quick note about the water.  How far apart are the
>>caches , it would make a difference if they were 30 miles apart or if
>>they are 15 miles apart?  Just trying to get some idea?
>>    
>>
>
>
>The caches are not evenly spaced. The caches are located near roads in
>places where they break up long waterless stretches. On average you will
>need to carry enough water to hike 12 miles from one water source to
>another, but there are a couple of stretches of over 20 miles without
>water. One of these has a cache near the mid point, but it should not be
>relied upon.
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 22:17:12 -0400
>From: Jim and/or Ginny Owen <spiriteagle99 at hotmail.com>
>Subject: [pct-l] Water Caches
>To: <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>Message-ID: <BAY115-W52B28B7C9C4CFECA227D91A09E0 at phx.gbl>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>One of the problems with known water caches is that people DO count on them.  They carry less water - a quart or two instead of a gallon.  Not only is there the risk that the cache may be empty, but also, because people are expecting the water, they are more likely to arrive empty.  Instead of just topping off with the water - drinking a bit to get by, they fill up two or more quarts.  That makes the caches empty out much faster.  Has anybody thought about putting out the water but not advertising them?  Then they are a treat - and not a disappointment or danger when they aren't there.
>
> 
>
>When we hiked the PCT in 2000, we didn't know where the water was going to be.  We knew about a couple of possible caches, but because we were ahead of the crowd, we knew we couldn't count on them.  One that we had heard about on Hat Rim didn't exist that year -- at least not when we were there.  Fortunately, we never expected the caches to be there. Each was a surprise.  Yes, we had to carry more weight - but so what?  It is an expected part of desert hiking - and of thruhiking.  When we found a cache, we cameled up happily, but it was a treat, not a necessity.  I don't think that advertising the caches is really doing the hikers a favor. 
>
> 
>
>Ginny
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:19:57 -0700 (PDT)
>From: ed faubert <edfaubert at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [pct-l] Water Caches
>To: Jim and/or Ginny Owen <spiriteagle99 at hotmail.com>
>Cc: pct-l at mailman.backcountry.net
>Message-ID: <629808.78063.qm at web110213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
>Meadow Ed here.............
>Speaking as one of the first trail angles to 'stash' water back in '96, that means?for well over a decade pcters have had some water caches provided. I can tell you that by 08 there was 3 dozen or so caches that are maintained somewhere on the trail. Keep in mind this does NOT include the ones provided by friends or family's of individual hikers who follow a hiker up the trail and will stash water or have water available in cars at trail heads. This method adds up to water being available?at most trail heads for some hikers.
>?
>No matter how one feels about the caches i can tell you they are NOT going to go away. We have even had to deal with immigration stealing the water as a deterrent for illegal. I saw 50 gallons of water throw in the garbage at Walker Pass by the Forest Service people when cleaning up the bathroom. i filled a complaint with the mans supervisor and well he did not return the water was told stashed water is not thrash.
>?
>Just like SPOT, GPSs, new updated topos, guide books etc etc water caches are now part of the PCT experience. Yes they do create some thrash buildup at places but that's mainly caused by lazy hikers who leave their thrash behind. i am seeing lots more thrash being left behind in the Grand Canyon, i recently got a new air mattress and aluminum ground sheet that way, i did however pass up the sleeping bag also left behind. ?
>?
>Yes we do tell folks where some of the caches are but just as many new ones pop up all alone the trail depending on who's driving cars. Folks are going out to lots of dirt roads and leaving not just water but feeding hikers too. Look at the latest PCTA mag to see the one held between Mojave and Walker Pass.
>
>--- On Tue, 3/10/09, Jim and/or Ginny Owen <spiriteagle99 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>From: Jim and/or Ginny Owen <spiriteagle99 at hotmail.com>
>Subject: [pct-l] Water Caches
>To: pct-l at backcountry.net
>Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 7:17 PM
>
>
>
>One of the problems with known water caches is that people DO count on them.? They carry less water - a quart or two instead of a gallon.? Not only is there the risk that the cache may be empty, but also, because people are expecting the water, they are more likely to arrive empty.? Instead of just topping off with the water - drinking a bit to get by, they fill up two or more quarts.? That makes the caches empty out much faster.? Has anybody thought about putting out the water but not advertising them?? Then they are a treat - and not a disappointment or danger when they aren't there.
>
>
>
>When we hiked the PCT in 2000, we didn't know where the water was going to be.? We knew about a couple of possible caches, but because we were ahead of the crowd, we knew we couldn't count on them.? One that we had heard about on Hat Rim didn't exist that year -- at least not when we were there.? Fortunately, we never expected the caches to be there. Each was a surprise.? Yes, we had to carry more weight - but so what?? It is an expected part of desert hiking - and of thruhiking.? When we found a cache, we cameled up happily, but it was a treat, not a necessity.? I don't think that advertising the caches is really doing the hikers a favor. 
>
>
>
>Ginny
>
>_______________________________________________
>Pct-l mailing list
>Pct-l at backcountry.net
>http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>
>
>
>      
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:45:03 -0700
>From: "Eric Lee" <saintgimp at hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [pct-l] Water Caches
>To: "'Jim and/or Ginny Owen'" <spiriteagle99 at hotmail.com>,
>	<pct-l at backcountry.net>
>Message-ID: <BAY124-DS33C0D6320F9D53633F9BBBD9E0 at phx.gbl>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Ginny wrote:
>  
>
>Has anybody thought about putting out the water but not advertising them?
>Then they are a treat - and not a disappointment or danger when they aren't
>there.
>  
>
>
>Water caches, like several other perennially hot topics, can raise strong
>opinions on both sides.  I agree with Ginny that in an ideal world, water
>caches would be moved around frequently and not be advertised so that no one
>would be able to make plans that rely on them.  That way they stay in the
>realm of "trail magic" rather than "essential utilities".
>
>But for better or worse, many of them are more or less permanent and the
>volunteers who stock them put in a lot of effort to make them as well-known
>and reliable as possible.  So to all who might want to base your safety
>around them, the only thing we can say is - please, please, please remember
>that all water caches are stocked on a best-effort basis only, and there are
>_no guarantees_, and plan appropriately, whatever than may mean for you.
>
>Eric
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 9
>Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:46:05 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Amanda L Silvestri <aslive at sbcglobal.net>
>Subject: [pct-l] California transit links
>To: pct-l at backcountry.net
>Message-ID: <531313.53010.qm at web80801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>Jeff
>?
>Wow! What a great link.? Thanks-a-lot dudeman.
>?
>Shepherd
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 21:28:57 -0700
>From: "AsABat" <AsABat at 4Jeffrey.Net>
>Subject: Re: [pct-l] Water Caches
>To: <pct-l at backcountry.net>
>Message-ID: <001c01c9a201$e4adc430$6401010a at PC8>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>
>There are I think 13 caches listed on the water reports in So Cal (plus
>2 on Hat Creek Rim). All but 2 of these are well known caches that are
>almost trail legend. The other 2 appeared in so many of my emails last
>year I added them. Each year I try to contact the water cachers to see
>if they will be stocked again, and if it is ok to post them. If they
>were not posted on the water reports, they would still be known to
>virtually everyone.
>
>That does NOT mean there will be water there when you arrive. As
>mentioned, those that count on caches and therefore only carry a quart
>or two will either use a lot of the cached water or will go very thirsty
>if the cache was emptied by those ahead who also relied on the cache.
>Beyond that, some hikers with allergies to dirt have been known to use
>caches for bathing, international visitors on nonexistent visas may grab
>several gallons apiece after their tour guides abandon them, dirtbaggers
>have been known to slash them just to make your life difficult, etc. 
>
>So, even if listed, treat it as trail magic if there's water, and don't
>be upset if there's not. The one time I actually planned on getting
>water from a cache, having been personally assured it would be stocked
>just for me, it was empty. Thankfully, I was carrying enough water to
>get me to the next source 15 miles away, although an extra liter sure
>would have made that hike a lot nicer.
>
>I no longer list exactly how many gallons are at a cache, both because
>it will change in an hour and to reduce reliance. I remember being told
>a trail angle was serving lunch at a road crossing up the trail. They
>were gone when I got there. I sure missed out, but then again I didn't
>miss anything I was counting on.
>
>Speaking of water reports, send them to water AT 4jeffrey DOT net. While
>we've had some rain down here, it's not as much as we need, and with the
>dry dirt I suspect seasonal stream beds may be more bed than stream.
>
>AsABat
>
>
>  
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Eric Lee [mailto:saintgimp at hotmail.com]
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 8:45 PM
>>To: 'Jim and/or Ginny Owen'; pct-l at backcountry.net
>>Subject: Re: [pct-l] Water Caches
>>
>>Ginny wrote:
>>    
>>
>>Has anybody thought about putting out the water but not advertising
>>    
>>
>them?
>  
>
>>Then they are a treat - and not a disappointment or danger when they
>>aren't
>>there.
>>    
>>
>>Water caches, like several other perennially hot topics, can raise
>>    
>>
>strong
>  
>
>>opinions on both sides.  I agree with Ginny that in an ideal world,
>>    
>>
>water
>  
>
>>caches would be moved around frequently and not be advertised so that
>>    
>>
>no
>  
>
>>one
>>would be able to make plans that rely on them.  That way they stay in
>>    
>>
>the
>  
>
>>realm of "trail magic" rather than "essential utilities".
>>
>>But for better or worse, many of them are more or less permanent and
>>    
>>
>the
>  
>
>>volunteers who stock them put in a lot of effort to make them as well-
>>known
>>and reliable as possible.  So to all who might want to base your
>>    
>>
>safety
>  
>
>>around them, the only thing we can say is - please, please, please
>>remember
>>that all water caches are stocked on a best-effort basis only, and
>>    
>>
>there
>  
>
>>are
>>_no guarantees_, and plan appropriately, whatever than may mean for
>>    
>>
>you.
>  
>
>>Eric
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Pct-l mailing list
>>Pct-l at backcountry.net
>>http://mailman.backcountry.net/mailman/listinfo/pct-l
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 11
>Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 21:59:25 -0700
>From: Diane at Santa Barbara Hikes dot com
>	<diane at santabarbarahikes.com>
>Subject: Re: [pct-l] Getting off the trail at Lone Pine
>To: pct-l at backcountry.net
>Message-ID:
>	<19029E5A-90E5-49D2-952A-FA6F36C9F97E at santabarbarahikes.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
>
>On Mar 10, 2009, at 5:50 PM, pct-l-request at backcountry.net wrote:
>  
>
>>Just for completeness, there is a third trail to Horseshoe Meadows.  
>>Mulkey
>>Pass is 1.5 miles before you get to Trail Pass. I have walked all  
>>the trails
>>mentioned. Of the three to Horseshoe Meadows, Cottonwood is the  
>>steepest,
>>but it is downhill. Mulkey and Trail are comparable. I agree with  
>>the pros
>>and cons given with regard to Horseshoe Meadows vs. Whitney Portal.
>>
>>Pieces
>>    
>>
>
>I took the Mulkey Pass trail. It sucks. I fell down. I got lost at  
>the end of it. Basically I did not know I needed to turn at a  
>junction in the gravelly area at the bottom. Trail pass is better.
>
>I got a ride to Lone Pine from the PCT from hikers I met the day  
>before I needed the ride. Getting back on the trail was MUCH harder  
>(and expensive.)
>
>And about the money question. Ain't telling. I don't need people  
>knowing how much cash I have.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Pct-l mailing list
>Pct-l at backcountry.net
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>
>
>End of Pct-l Digest, Vol 15, Issue 40
>*************************************
>
>
>  
>
If you run out of water in the Hwy S-2,, Hwy 78 section, call me for 
help. 760-765-3351
Julian Borrego Hostel.