[pct-l] Trail Running Shoes so great?

[Stephen]

Monty has a good point which should be taken into consideration.  So called 
water proof GTX shoes generally do not breath as well as the hype would like 
you to, and they do not drain very fast, or should I say you have a water 
bag around your foot that has to be drained mopped out.  My feet suffer 
badly in hot weather, worse with GTX and this when I've had most foot 
problems.  Shoes that breath wellalso let water drainout quickly and dry 
faster.  Leather,with a GTX liner traps water and retards drying.  Leather 
itself once saturated takes a while to dry.  GTX might seem good in snow and 
shallow puddles, muddy trail and where water is flowing on the trails 
whichis common early season. Even better when combined with gaitorswhichkeep 
snow, debris, and the occasional splash out of the shoes.  Nice for a 
variety of hikes and light rains.  But when you get tothe deeper crossings 
some of us will deem it safer to cross with tightly laced shoes.  I don't 
cross creeks in sandals for good reason, and it's barefeet on short hikes 
and only with shoes on with and without socks depending on the circumstances 
when far from assistance. I am pretty careful.  Two seasons ago I had my mid 
weight Merrels almost completely separate after crossing Taboose Creek early 
season and completely soaking them.  Same thing happened to my stiffer 
trekking Technicas after having the leather soaked from snow this last 
season.  Both pairs had some miles on them but were not worn out, so be 
forwarned about glued soles on older boots.
When hiking accross snow in shoes my feet get a little damp sometimes but 
the bigger issue seems to be snow getting around the ankles.  Once when 
making a chopped step accent (it was more like three pokes with the axe to 
break the crust and kick in the step) in a steep snow bowl I could not keep 
stooping to clear the snow out around my ankles, so went on up and made my 
transition to rock and finished the climb.  Later when I got back to my bivy 
sight by a lake I noticed I had burns or something around where the snow was 
continually getting in around my ankles and lost a layer of skin on both.  I 
don't remember experiencing anything but minor rash pain from it and hiked 
out without any trouble but decided that on future outings when the axe goes 
on the pack so to I'd at least bring the low gaitors.  The reason I got away 
from using them was to keep the weight off and more breathing for my feet.
Anyway, if hiking along in the mtns and constantly splashing through small 
and large creeks, I want a shoe that dries fast.  That means breathable, and 
not too much foam padding between the wicking liner and outer.  This 
combined with a synthetic leather outer seems to dry the fastest along with 
removing the socks for creek crossings which prevents them being soaked. 
After crossing, drainshoes, pull out insole and mop out some if possible. 
Sure they get damp when you put your wet shoes back on, but I find it a 
little more comfortable.  Finding a good combination of shoes and socks 
isn't always easy.  Finding the same combo that's still reasonably 
comfortable when wet means trying it.  If your shoes or boots are still wet 
or damp in the evening, what works pretty well for me is putting them in my 
sleeping bag stuff sack and then in my pack if I expect it to get frosty 
(Don't do this with your pack in bad bear areas if you suspect your pack may 
be a target. You don't want to loose your shoes) .  If my socks are dry,or 
near enough. I either sleep with them at the foot of my bag, inside, or 
bring them in in the morning and allow them to warm up some.  I put them on 
in my bag and after a little bit will swing round and put my shoes or boots 
on.  This at least takes the edge off and helps warm the shoes a little.  I 
tend to have hiking socks and night socks.  I while I have never changed 
socks during the day I will if I hike long this season so Ican have one 
washed and drying and wont have night socks.  When I get to where I am 
stopping for the night I want to have a dry pair, esspecially if my shoes 
are damp.  Then I will have dry warm socks in the morning, somewhat clean 
and ready to go.  I think it's better for the feet to sleep without socks on 
unless needed in extra cold weather, and thus the benefit of the dry pair at 
the end of the day. I use a medium weight wool blend sock (smartwool) which 
takes awhile to completely dry.  If you can get away with thinner socks 
they'll dry faster.  But the wool in combination with a very breathable shoe 
keeps my feet temps stable so they aren't too sweaty in hot weather so my 
feet aren't sliding all uncomfortable in the shoe requiring over tightening 
the laces, and in cool weather or damp conditions I do pretty good so long 
as I am moving right along.  Another reason for having the dry socks when I 
stop. Once my old feet get cold it is really hard to warm them.
About personal footwear choices:
My feet are in bad shape.  I haven't found a boot that I can wear 
comfortably without pain for many years.  So I tend to look at lighter 
weight hiking shoes, preferably just over the ankle mids in the 2lb range. 
This is where I have had the best luck and something that might last a 
little while.  Occasionally I find a decent lighter trail running shoe that 
works for me for lighter trips but it is rare.  My shoes, even sandals, take 
months to break in and find out what they are about.  Lighter shoes too, and 
only once did I ever get a shoe that I walked a couple miles and then took 
backpacking.  For me it is all about finding something that doesn't hurt so 
bad I can wear them in.  Generally my shoes are about half to two thirds 
worn out when they feel best.  As I've also mentioned here before, 
pronation, the way the foot moves through each step, is very important. 
Even really light trail running shoes can cause a feeling of having to make 
extra effort with each step, however slight.  I'm not kidding when I say 
that I look for a shoe that promotes forward motion.  I like footwear that 
feels like a part of the foot, not clunky or too much volume.  No hard spots 
under the ball which are common in plastic stiffened glued up boots.  Same 
with the heel.  The most comfortable heel I have ever walked with is the 
Superfoot shape which cups and supports the entire heel (at least for 
ahundred miles until the foam breaks down and you feellike there's a tiny 
rockin your shoe)rather than like walking on a sponge or flat hard board 
which can bruise the heel.
I've been trying some different trail running type shoes and find they are 
mostly gimmickey junk made in China.  There is definately a possitive side 
to getting weight off the feet, but if I can find a slightly heavier light 
hiking shoe that works for me I'd rather be able to walk than not.  I 
sometimes bring a pair of sandals and like to walk a ways in them and switch 
back and forth esspecially if it's hot out, but have experienced tendon 
problems when using them more than a couple miles at a time, and extra care 
needs to be taken to prevent bloody foot syndrome known as "the dreaded 
stick jam".  And I use the tip of my hiking pole to extracate those little 
pebbles (please note that Ionly use one pole when walking in sandals and 
usually just carry it.  Like in tallus off trail stuff, one will be able to 
keep track of two feet better than trying to place two feet and two poles, 
ask anyone who has fallen in talus with poles if they think it's still good 
idea not to put them away until back on easy terrain.  And there is a good 
chance of jabbing the foot with the tip.)
With my problem feets I have truly found that using light footwear requires 
using light pack gear.  I've been able to haul some heavier weight on 
extended trips, but suffered some for it and those pains like achiles tendon 
strains and flared arthertitis in foot joints doesn't go away as the food 
dissappears, so care in not over doing it right out of the gate, which I 
don't seem to have learned very well yet, is a good thing to keep in mind. 
I've left a trailhead with forty pounds and finished with about eighteen and 
barely able to walk every afternoon due to over enthusiasm and just feeling 
like I needed to keep going when stopping five miles sooner would have been 
more prudent for the first couple days with an imballance of footwear vs 
pack weight. Keep this in mind when you have three gallons of water on board 
and some cute 1 lb running shoes on your feet.  Just a thought.  I know it 
works fine for some folks, but for myself I need to be more careful or I run 
myself to ground and can either continue to hike in pain and hope it doesn't 
get worse, cut my mileage way back for a couple days, or take a day or two 
off, or go home.
So study up more if unsure about footwear choices and decissions.  Find 
something that matches your style whether UL, light or medium weight (I 
don't think or hope anyone is Norman Clyding it anymore, but there is always 
the exception like Mr. Clyde himself).  Get a good fit and start walking on 
varried terrain.  Walk through puddles, hose your shoes down and see how 
your feet feel and do it again.  If you have boots fill them full of water 
and try hiking in them wet.  Try different socks, note how the fit changes. 
When you find something that works good walk them into oblivion just to make 
sure.
How I'm approaching a 1,200 mile section is I have a pair of breathable 
light hikers all broke in and put aside from last season, and am working on 
a pair of 3lb fabric leather GTX boots for crossing the Sierra Crest mixed 
trail and cross-country to VVR from Bishop area (if you've ever kicked in 
steps on snow slopes or traversed long sections of sun cups and done long 
decents plunge stepping you'll understand this decision since this is more a 
light mountaineering  leg to the PCT and different than distance hiking and 
relates to conditions and safe routing rather than mileage.  If I don't like 
the looks of things I have alternate routes and trails I can backtrack to or 
a variety of routes I can try where I've been before in a variety of 
conditions).  And am working on finding some trail runners to have waiting 
farther north which I'll pick up with my sandals probably about Sierra City. 
And will have a pair of old faithfuls a little farther north which if I 
don't need them can toss.
So as I've said before and will repeat here, footwear very much relates to 
hiking style and packweight.  Fit is as important as anything you will do 
getting ready for your adventure.  I, we, or anyone can recommend  shoes to 
try out, but it is ultimately up to individuals to put in the effort to find 
out about thier feet and getting the right thing for themselves.  Like any 
other aspect of hiking style, it is a personal choice and no one will laugh 
if you are walking along through the lodglepole forest in Lassen Park in 
wooden clogs, so long as they work for you, but I am going to repeat one 
more time, because I have met folks walking along the JMT in bare feet and 
carrying nice new boots over thier shoulder, and a few others limping along 
with bloody feet in sandals along the rough eastern Sierra trails, that you 
get started long before D-day and make sure your footwear matches your pack 
gear and that you have made GDS you have a good fit for walking all day 
long, every day, for very many days, and that you have some sort of back up 
contingency plan in case you have problems.  Mine is to have well worn trail 
proven comfortable shoes to start, and to look forward to, and a pair at 
home that can be sent if need be.
Sorry for the babble, but it's already almost March, so I trust most folks 
already know what they are about, but my intensity is aimed more at those 
who might be heading for Campo and stopping off on the way to pick up a new 
pair of Addidas. Stranger things have happened...

Stephen




----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ned at pacificcrestcustombuilders.com>
To: "Diane at Santa Barbara Hikes dot com" <diane at santabarbarahikes.com>; 
<pct-l at backcountry.net>
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Trail Running Shoes so great?


> Ok.  It seems evident that trail runners are highly spoken of and their
> negatives are either not talked about or lived with.
>
> What I want to know is what are those negatives? All I've heard of is wet
> and/or cold feet for days. You mean the following don't occur with these
> shoes and no one has ever had an injury or had to leave the trail because 
> of
> shoe problems?
>
> Slip and Falls
> Frostbite
> too many rocks in the shoes
> Plantar Fasciitis
> Achilles Tendonitis
> ripped or torn uppers
> sole separations/delaminations
> Sprained/Strained Ankles/Tendons
> jammed toes from soft uppers
> numerous blisters from too roomy a shoe
>
> Just curious....
>
> Mtnned
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Diane at Santa Barbara Hikes dot com" <diane at santabarbarahikes.com>
> To: <pct-l at backcountry.net>
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 4:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [pct-l] Trail Running Shoes
>
>
>>
>> On Feb 20, 2009, at 2:57 PM, pct-l-request at backcountry.net wrote:
>>>
>>> For those hikers who have used trail running shoes, for how much of
>>> the
>>> hike are they feasible (with respect to snow/slush and days of
>>> unrelenting rain)?
>>
>> They are feasible for the entire trail.
>>>
>>> BACKGROUND: I am highly susceptible to back-of-heal blisters and have
>>> found trail running shoes to be my fair weather hiking salvation.
>>
>> The weather on the trail will be fair almost all the time. You should
>> wear shoes that do not cause you physical harm and that includes
>> shoes that do not force your feet and body to walk in unnatural ways,
>> which is what overly stiff, overly protective shoes can do.
>>
>> Personally, I could not fathom hiking in rock-hard, frozen solid,
>> wet, leather boots. What could be worse? If your trail runners get
>> wet you leave them in the sun for a few hours and they're dry.
>>
>> Enjoy your trail runners.
>>
>>
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