[pct-l] advice for lite equipment

Thu Oct 30 17:50:33 CDT 2008

Grayhair,

If he hasn't already responded to you, Ed Anderson did some significant
miles with his endurance horse Primo this past season, and he did it more
"hiker-style", rather than the cast iron skillets and canned goods many
horsemen pack in.  As an endurance riding champion, Ed will be an invaluable
resource to you.  He and Primo were quite a team!

Joanne Lennox is another great source for information on ultralight
thru-riding.  Joanne first thru-hiked the PCT, then thru-rode it on her
horse Hopi.  She applied the gear lessons she learned from backpacking.  She
made her own saddle bags out of silnylon, and packed typical light hiker
gear.  This made things easier on the horse, and negated the need for a
second pack animal(s).

There are many great resources for the kind of gear you need, and lots of
discussions about gear preferences in the PCT-L archives.  I suggest going
to www.backpackgeartest.org 

L-Rod

p.s.  I really like your trail name.  I have a dapple gray mare.  Gray is
beautiful!

-----Original Message-----
From: pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net]
On Behalf Of susan
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 5:12 AM
To: pct-l at backcountry.net
Subject: Re: [pct-l] advice for lite equipment

Need suggestions for equipment purchase for thru pack with one horse. Must
save every oz. Tent with (must have) bathtub floor? Sleeping pad for old
bones and sore joints (this is really important). Suggestions on socks -
wear 2 pair? Saw an ad for head lamp which also could charge phone battery,
may have been solar as well - anyone use it/know where to find it? Thanks!
Susan (Grayhair)

-----Original Message-----
From: pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net [mailto:pct-l-bounces at backcountry.net]
On Behalf Of pct-l-request at backcountry.net
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 5:16 AM
To: pct-l at backcountry.net
Subject: Pct-l Digest, Vol 10, Issue 56

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Water Capacity in Desert (Eric Lee (GAMES))
   2. Re: Water Capacity in Desert
      (Diane at Santa Barbara Hikes dot com)
   3. Re: Water Capacity in Desert
      (Diane at Santa Barbara Hikes dot com)
   4. Mountain Laurel Designs small Pyramid shelter -  DuoMid (Deems)
   5. The Chouinard Pyramid shelter (Deems)
   6. Water capacity in the desert (Paul Magnanti)
   7. Knee problems (Marion Davison)
   8. Re: Knee problems (Tortoise)
   9. Winter storm for the Sierras this weekend, possible foot or
      more of snow at 8000 ft.  starts Thursday (mattjolley at comcast.net)
  10. Water capacity in the desert (ietura at viajarapie.info)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:38:13 -0700
From: "Eric Lee (GAMES)" <elee at microsoft.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Water Capacity in Desert
To: virgil <virgil at baloney.com>, "pct-l at backcountry.net"
	<pct-l at backcountry.net>
Message-ID:

<F6CCDB15BB67A44A987551F27FA3E07513B10E48D7 at NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.micro
soft.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Virgil wrote:
>
But one thing I've never been clear on, do fire tanks count as caches?  Or
is
it just when when the water is in plastic jugs?
>

Speaking purely from my own opinion, I think the issue is the reliability of
the water source, not what form it's in.  A water cache of 20 or 30 gallons
could *easily* be dry just when you're counting on it, so obviously you
shouldn't count on it.  A fire tank containing thousands of gallons of water
isn't likely to disappear overnight, so if you have recent information
saying that it has water, it's pretty likely to still have water when you
get there.  Well, unless there's a fire, I guess.  Nothing in life is
certain.  But some things are more certain than others.

For me, it's not about any aesthetic concerns over what form the water comes
in.  It's merely about responsibility and safety.

Eric

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:33:43 -0700
From: Diane at Santa Barbara Hikes dot com
	<diane at santabarbarahikes.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Water Capacity in Desert
To: Gary Wright <gwtmp01 at mac.com>
Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID:
	<47C7D2C2-6AB4-4705-8DA3-FE61F5731CBF at santabarbarahikes.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

No, I did not rely on water caches with the exception of the ones in  
Jawbone Cyn and Hat Creek Rim. I did not need either of them,  
however. I planned to go without them. In the instance of Jawbone Cyn  
I had planned not to hike the trail but when I saw the cache at Kelso  
Rd. I decided to stay on the trail and rely on the Bird Spring Pass  
cache because I assumed Bird Spring would have as full as Kelso Rd  
(and it more or less was). I drank from the Hat Creek Rim cache but I  
could have done without. A few other times I topped off on caches  
(like 1/2 liter), but I should not have. I did not need it.

On Oct 29, 2008, at 12:32 PM, Gary Wright wrote:

>
> On Oct 29, 2008, at 2:19 PM, Diane at Santa Barbara Hikes dot com  
> wrote:
>> I think 8 liters sounds like too much. But you know your own body. I
>> never carried more than 5.5 liters and frankly, that was too much for
>> me. I almost always had some water left when I came to a source.
>
> You don't say if you relied on water caches at all.  That is important
> to know and the original poster said he was *not* going to rely on
> water caches.
>
> In hot weather, when not using water caches, I think it would be
> wise to be able to carry 7-8 liters of water.  With those constraints
> it is also very important to not hike during the heat of the day.  Get
> up early, take a long siesta, hike late.
>
> Radar

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:44:55 -0700
From: Diane at Santa Barbara Hikes dot com
	<diane at santabarbarahikes.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Water Capacity in Desert
To: Gary Wright <gwtmp01 at mac.com>
Cc: pct-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID:
	<0E5A0121-D8C5-41E3-ACCF-00C7DDBF7E3F at santabarbarahikes.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

Also, I forgot to mention this, it was unseasonably cool most times I  
dropped into true desert. Scissors Crossing was only in the 80s when  
I arrived. I stayed in Cabazon so that desert section was air- 
conditioned for me. The Antelope Valley was almost cold. We huddled  
under the bridge with down jackets and sleeping bags. Jawbone Cyn was  
in the 90s. Hat Creek Rim was in the 90s. I was lucky. The hottest  
day for me was Deep Creek at 103 and there was plenty of water there.

I don't think I could have carried 8 liters of water even if I wanted  
to. It would be too much for me. I am more used to the chaparral than  
a lot of people, though.

Also, I noticed that the ultralighters would walk past any water  
source that was shallow or looked dirty. I took water from any  
natural source that would not kill me, even stopping at tiny little  
puddles to top off. So I carried only a maximum of 5.5 liters at any  
time, but I kept it full.

Piper/Diane

On Oct 29, 2008, at 12:32 PM, Gary Wright wrote:

>
> On Oct 29, 2008, at 2:19 PM, Diane at Santa Barbara Hikes dot com  
> wrote:
>> I think 8 liters sounds like too much. But you know your own body. I
>> never carried more than 5.5 liters and frankly, that was too much for
>> me. I almost always had some water left when I came to a source.
>
> You don't say if you relied on water caches at all.  That is important
> to know and the original poster said he was *not* going to rely on
> water caches.
>
> In hot weather, when not using water caches, I think it would be
> wise to be able to carry 7-8 liters of water.  With those constraints
> it is also very important to not hike during the heat of the day.  Get
> up early, take a long siesta, hike late.
>
> Radar

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:55:44 -0700
From: "Deems" <losthiker at sisqtel.net>
Subject: [pct-l] Mountain Laurel Designs small Pyramid shelter -
	DuoMid
To: "pct" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <002401c93a2a$3e1c9db0$47591fd0 at S0029439031>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

In 1987 I bought one of the first Chouinard pyramid shelters, a brilliant 
7x9ft footprint with a 5ft height. It weighed 2.5 pounds, could handle snow 
and windstorms, and was the cutting edge ultralight shelter 20 yrs ago. I've

been waiting a long time for a similar design to come along built with 
silnylon, and Mt Laurel Designs has just recently presented this 
opportunity. Perfect for two, or one with a dog, or solo, stable in high 
winds, it is a 15oz wonder, and available in cutting edge fabrics in a 10 oz

version. Support the cottage industry wizards, they are making the 
ultralight gear we need for our trail adventures. I will order one soon for 
next year's adventures with Kelly dog.
http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com:80/shop/product_info.php?products_id=10
5&osCsid=06d07f75903cdfe3cbed66646ca9cf43

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:31:21 -0700
From: "Deems" <losthiker at sisqtel.net>
Subject: [pct-l] The Chouinard Pyramid shelter
To: "pct" <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <003c01c93a32$57484660$47591fd0 at S0029439031>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

The Chouinard Pyramid is one of the first nylon pyramid shelters, and was 
the cutting edge ultralight in the 1980s. Here's a photo of mine along the 
PCT up Grider Creek last spring.
 http://www.pbase.com/losthiker/image/94604771

Yvon Chouinard quit making adventure gear for us, 'cept Patagonia clothing, 
due to a frivolous lawsuit brought on  due to improper use of his climbing 
equipment.   Our great loss due to a rookie mistake. Yvon turns 70 this 
year! 

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:07:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Magnanti <pmags at yahoo.com>
Subject: [pct-l] Water capacity in the desert
To: PCT MailingList <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <707621.14410.qm at web35207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

My own personal math is 1 ltr/5miles. If hiked 10 miles between water, then
I'd carry 2 ltrs and so on.

I also liked to have an extra 2 ltrs if I dry camped.

Obviously,this can changed based on heat, steepness of climbing, etc. 

But, it worked for me in desert hiking along the PCT and CDT.

 ************************************************************
The true harvest of my life is intangible.... a little stardust 
caught, a portion of the rainbow I have clutched
--Thoreau
http://www.pmags.com

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:58:05 -0700
From: Marion Davison <mardav at charter.net>
Subject: [pct-l] Knee problems
To: Joe Bastian <joebastian1 at yahoo.com>, 	Pacific Crest Trail List
	<pct-l at backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <490914AD.109 at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I had similar issues this year.  On my first trail work weekend I was in 
a full kneeling position for a long time (feet back, legs bent, butt 
resting on feet).  When I tried to get up and move I didn't push off 
with my hands, and I got a horrendous stabbing pain in one knee.  I had 
to limp on it, 18 miles, to where my car was parked.  I rested it for a 
few weeks, went hiking again, found it painful to walk uphill or 
downhill.  But oh well, fiddle dee dee, it will get better tomorrow. I 
got a Cho-Pat knee brace and kept on hiking.   I did a few more weekend 
hikes, starting out okay, limping and cursing by the end.  In June a 
hike made my knee swell up hugely so I finally went to the doctor.  An 
MRI showed a slightly torn meniscus, an attenuated (thinning) ACL, and a 
lot of arthritis under the patella.  They told me that I am too old for 
surgery (at 52) and the doctor prescribed a custom ACL brace that cost 
over $2000.  I finally got the brace in July and did a 50 mile week-long 
Sierra trip with no issues.  I wear it to hike, walk or work out at the 
gym.  Chiropractic therapy got the swelling down and strengthening 
exercises got my knee to "track" better.
But I have to wear the brace for any exercise, permanently.  If I don't, 
I will have pain and the ACL will probably rupture somewhere in the 
backcountry.
Now my insurance company is refusing to pay for the brace so I am stuck 
with the bill.
Aging and modern medicine.  Oh well.  At least I can hike again, pain free.
Marion

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:39:15 -0700
From: Tortoise <Tortoise73 at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Knee problems
To: Marion Davison <mardav at charter.net>
Cc: Pacific Crest Trail List <pct-l at backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <49093A73.4000003 at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I had some knee problems labor day weekend just sitting at my table and 
reaching for a book in my bookcase. :-(
Short version -- I went to my VA doctor. He thought it was probably 
arthritis but maybe could be something torn. He prescribed Etodolac, a 
NSAID for three months.  half-way thru I don't know if this will help. 
still have knee pains, especially when I bend my knees way down to sit 
then get back up. OTOH, I did do 3 miles hiking with pack both Sunday 
and Monday. Had aching muscles but no knee problems. 
So ? ? ?
I guess I'm getting old (now 65) and developing some problems associated 
with living a long time.

Tortoise

<> He who finishes last, wins! <>

Marion Davison wrote:
> I had similar issues this year.  . . .
>   

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 05:21:12 +0000 (UTC)
From: mattjolley at comcast.net
Subject: [pct-l] Winter storm for the Sierras this weekend, possible
	foot or more of snow at 8000 ft.  starts Thursday
To: pct-l at baCKCOUNTRY.NET
Message-ID:

<877707657.2264391225344072314.JavaMail.root at sz0057a.emeryville.ca.mail.comc
ast.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

The satellite photo shows the first front coming in.?? 33 MPH Gusting
winds?also forecast. 

SPECIAL WEATHER STATEMENT 
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE SACRAMENTO CA 
1005 PM PDT WED OCT 29 2008 

CAZ013>019-063-064-066>069-301500- 
SHASTA LAKE AREA / NORTHERN SHASTA COUNTY- 
BURNEY BASIN / EASTERN SHASTA COUNTY-NORTHERN SACRAMENTO VALLEY- 
CENTRAL SACRAMENTO VALLEY-SOUTHERN SACRAMENTO VALLEY- 
CARQUINEZ STRAIT AND DELTA-NORTHERN SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY- 
MOUNTAINS SOUTHWESTERN SHASTA COUNTY TO NORTHERN LAKE COUNTY- 
CLEAR LAKE/SOUTHERN LAKE COUNTY- 
NORTHEAST FOOTHILLS/SACRAMENTO VALLEY-MOTHERLODE- 
WESTERN PLUMAS COUNTY/LASSEN PARK- 
WEST SLOPE NORTHERN SIERRA NEVADA- 
1005 PM PDT WED OCT 29 2008 

...COOL AND WET WEATHER EXPECTED THURSDAY THROUGH THE WEEKEND... 

THE WEATHER PATTERN IS EXPECTED TO BECOME WETTER AND COOLER 
THURSDAY THROUGH THE WEEKEND WITH SEVERAL SYSTEMS MOVING ACROSS 
NORTHERN CALIFORNIA. THE FIRST STORM SYSTEM WILL APPROACH THE 
REGION ON THURSDAY WITH SOME SHOWERS POSSIBLY STARTING IN THE 
MOUNTAINS THURSDAY AFTERNOON AHEAD OF THE MAIN SYSTEM. RAIN WILL 
START TO MOVE OVER THE INTERIOR COASTAL RANGE AND DELTA THURSDAY 
EVENING AND THEN SPREAD EASTWARD THROUGHOUT THE REMAINDER OF THE 
CENTRAL VALLEY AND WESTERN SLOPES THURSDAY NIGHT. PRECIPITATION 
MAY TAPER OFF FRIDAY AFTERNOON AND EVENING...ESPECIALLY IN THE 
VALLEY AND FOOTHILLS IN BETWEEN SYSTEMS. A GREATEST THREAT OF 
SHOWERS DURING THAT TIME PERIOD WILL REMAIN OVER THE NORTHERN 
SACRAMENTO VALLEY...NORTHERN FOOTHILLS...THE COASTAL RANGE FROM 
NORTHERN NAPA COUNTY AND PLACES NORTHWARD AND THE HIGHER 
ELEVATIONS OF THE SIERRA NEVADA. A STRONGER STORM SYSTEM IS 
EXPECTED TO MOVE THROUGH THE REGION SATURDAY AND SATURDAY NIGHT 
WITH A THIRD SYSTEM MOVING THROUGH THE REGION SUNDAY NIGHT. 

RAINFALL TOTALS THROUGH THE WEEKEND FROM ALL OF THESE STORMS COULD 
RANGE FROM 3 TO 5 INCHES IN THE MOUNTAINS...WITH THE GREATEST 
AMOUNTS EXPECTED OVER WESTERN SHASTA AND WESTERN PLUMAS COUNTIES. 
THE CENTRAL VALLEY RAINFALL AMOUNTS COULD RANGE FROM AROUND ONE 
HALF AN INCH NEAR MODESTO TO NEAR 2 INCHES NEAR REDDING. RAINFALL 
FROM THE SERIES OF STORMS COULD POSE SOME PROBLEMS FOR SOME OF 
THE BURN AREAS FROM THE WILDFIRES THIS PAST SUMMER AND WILL BRING 
THE POTENTIAL FOR MUD AND DEBRIS FLOWS. 

SNOW LEVELS WILL START OUT RELATIVELY HIGH ABOVE 8000 FEET AND 
SLOWLY LOWER THROUGH THE WEEKEND...POSSIBLY TO AROUND 5000 FEET BY 
MONDAY. THE TIME FRAME OF MOST CONCERN FOR SNOW ACCUMULATION BELOW 
PASS LEVEL WILL MOSTLY LIKELY BE SUNDAY NIGHT INTO MONDAY MORNING AS 
THE SNOW LEVELS DROP. PERIODS OF GUSTY SOUTHERLY WINDS ARE ALSO 
EXPECTED WITH THESE SYSTEMS. ABOVE 8000 FEET SIGNIFICANT SNOWFALL 
ACCUMULATION IS POSSIBLE WITH A FOOT OR MORE OR SNOWFALL LIKELY. 

MOTORISTS SHOULD BE PREPARED FOR SLIPPERY DRIVING CONDITIONS 
LATE THURSDAY AND THROUGH THE WEEKEND DUE TO THE COMBINATION OF 
RAINFALL AND THE ACCUMULATION OF OILS ON AREA ROADWAYS. WINTER 
WEATHER CONDITIONS ARE EXPECTED IN THE MOUNTAINS THIS WEEKEND. 

LISTEN TO NOAA WEATHER RADIO OR YOUR LOCAL MEDIA OUTLET OR VISIT 
OUR WEBSITE AT HTTP://WEATHER.GOV/SACRAMENTO FOR THE LATEST 
UPDATES ON THE CHANGING WEATHER CONDITIONS THROUGH THIS WEEKEND

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 06:16:42 -0400
From: "ietura at viajarapie.info" <ietura at viajarapie.info>
Subject: [pct-l] Water capacity in the desert
To: pct-l at backcountry.net
Message-ID: <380-2200810430101642921 at M2W031.mail2web.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

everytime I start on a trail, the first couple days are a test and an
adapt-to-a-trail experience until I know what to expect. One of the main
issues is water: where can I find it, how often, of what quality, how much
I need... it's actually one of the key factors for me to get used to trail
life and to feel comfortable out there, to know what to expect about water
needs and supplies. It just takes a few days and it's a good idea to be
conservative those first few days. After that, you'll know.
rainskirt

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